Interviews
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Interview 1
Name: 1
Date: August 4, 2007
Time: 2:00pm-3:15pm
Location: Joe’s Garage PS 28
Focus: Squats in general and the Weggelwinkel
Notes: not recorded, paraphrased
How long has the Weggeefwinkel been running?
Maybe two years.
How does it operate?
It’s mostly anarchistic, but there is a coordinator. The system is simpler.
What other functions are there in this space?
Breakfast on Sunday, Monday and Thursday people’s kitchen, movie nights, etc.
There is a space problem.
Who uses the Weggeefwinkel?
People in general. Mostly people in the neighborhood that need to get rid of things or need to get things. It’s an opportunity for exchange. It’s a protest against consumption.
Is there any advertisement for the Weggeefwinkel?
Maybe some flyers and online, but most is word of mouth.
Why is it important?
It is neighborhood friendly. Other activities in the squat are more at night, there’s bar and other sorts.
What about you, what are you involved in?
I help out with the give away shop. I specifically am in charge of throwing things out. It’s hard for many people to throw things out because people come to prevent that. If something is here for more then a month, it should be thrown out. I also help with the squatting hour.
Are you in a squat?
No, presently I live in a rented apartment. It is better now because I can concentrate more of my time to studying and it’s more stable. I don’t have to worry about moving so much.
Do you know much about the history of this squat?
The previous owner we are pretty sure was a criminal; the present owners we think are criminals too. We think that they had a connection. In Dutch law, they try to stop criminals. They do not allow building permits to people who have earned money illegally. I’m under the impression that squatters pay rent, is this true? No, squatters do not pay rent. Even if they did pay to owner, the owner is not legally bound to not evict them because they have given money. Squatters can negotiate a renting contract, which would make the squat legal. There are cases where the owner wants to sell the property for more money. That’s why a lot of the time the building is empty. Squatting is an alternative to homelessness and temporary high rent. Owners can rent out spaces for temporary use at a very high rent. This is not good because there are so many conditions like no one can stay over, or no parties. It’s not legal but it’s not protested.
So, what do people wait on waitlists for?
Social renting. It’s a fixed range of rent that an owner can charge for. It’s for everyone to get a mixed people. It’s not like low income housing in America. There are rent subsidies from the government for low-income parties, but no one needs to know that they are low income. Their neighbors will think they pay the same amount of rent as them.
Lately, there is a promotion for people to own their own places like condos.
How did you start squatting?
I was 16 and I needed a place to live. I’ve been squatting for 5 years then got a rented apartment at 21.
Why are you still involved with squat hour?
There still is a housing shortage. It’s good to help solve people’s personal problems in practical ways. It’s about taking actions and influencing policy. It’s very DIY. Someone needs to pass it on.
What are you studying?
Sociology at the University of Amsterdam. Bachelor’s degree. Focusing on the housing policy.
Nowadays, most squatters work. It used to be that they had more time. Now time is more efficient.
What sort of law issues can take place?
First there’s the criminal law. A space can be squatted after one year. The officer of justice is between a judge and the police. They have to decide how long the space was vacant before it was squatted. There’s also civil law. If the owner has an urgent need for the space, he/she can try to evict the squatters. It’s hard though because there are people living there. Once an eviction is made there is notice and time for the squatters to get out. Sometimes they have eviction days where they go around and evict many squats on the same day. Some are empty but some squatters stay in and defend. It doesn’t ever work.
I had some earl gray and my interviewee was rolling tobacco.
What is the community of the squat like?
Well, it was up to the people. It depends on if the people are very political or just are living there. A couple can squat one apartment. Usually you have your own room and there is a common kitchen and bathroom. It is difficult to live in groups; that’s why many people turn to squatting. There is no lodging. Many people think they can just live in a squat while they visit, but it takes work to squat a building. It’s up to the people that live there. If they don’t know you, it’s not good to barge in and stay there, when they have worked for their squat.
A man took some bricks. It was for a barbeque in their new squat. Many things are collective, so the interviewee was not sure to allow him the bricks because someone could have had a plan for them.
What is the N in a circle?
It’s not an N it’s a lightning bolt. It’s the international symbol for squatting.
There are two aspects to squatting: living and activities. The activities are more group oriented.
There is a new squat that just opened today. It’s a group of renters. The owner wants to tear it down and make different apartments not social housing. It’s been an initiative of the people because they have decided to squat it.
Do you think that you are impacting society?
That’s a heavy question. The work is very practical. Making people aware that there is an alternative to consumption and there is a more creative way to live life.
What about activism?
The squat bars are hangouts for people in activism. Many people are interested in animal rights, antifascism. It’s very linked but it is not the identity. The squatting scene is very personal because it’s where you live.
It’s very confrontational. You have to stand up to police and angry owners. That’s why there are so many more men. It makes you feel important.
The squatting scene is very diverse. You can be very policy directed or simply claiming spaces to do what you want.
Is the squatting scene welcoming to outsiders?
In Joe’s garage, we work really hard to be welcoming, notice the white walls.
Is it dangerous?
No
Is it okay to take pictures of squats?
It’s all personal preference. Many would not like it if they were photographed while breaking down a door.
What does legalization of a squat mean?
One of two things: either the squat is about the own the property like Vrankrijk, or they come to some rental contract with the owner.
Interview 2
Interview 2
3e Oosterparkstraat.
August 7, 2007
with 2 interviewees
8:30pm
Transcription to the best of my ability
Antisquatters?
Yes, some times they give them other names. Antikraakers. They are watching out for squatters, so they watch out for squatters in houses. Others call them the “strike breakers of the housing market” because in effect there is a big difference between a rental contract and the anti squat contract.
What’s that?
It mostly consists of the waiving of rights. In a rental contract, your rental price is protected. Your rent duration is protected and the state of your house is protected. You can complain if the rent gets higher. You can complain if you don’t like the state needs repairs of your house. It takes out all your protection.
So you don’t have to pay that much money…
Sometimes, 150euro a month. Most antisquat companies had to deal with legal settlements. If they were to charge 400, the judge would be inclined to give a full rental status. The antisquat companies want to make sure that that doesn’t happen.
But what is the normal rent range?
Well, anything between 300-500 euros is what middle income. So we are not that far away from it.
But 300 euros is normal price for a room in a house.
It’s too high.
People consider it very lucky if they can find something under 300 euros. In the university you will see signs saying “ I want a room”. On student finance situation, it wasn’t really possible to pay more than 250 euros. You would pay what you can, and they would rent it to you.
So, this antisquatting is of course a confrontation with the squatting movement because they get a house without a rental contract. We want to take houses and get them a rental contract. Antikraak takes houses out of the market by making it pseudoempty, prevent rent in houses.
How long has antisquatting been going on?
Since the mid 1980s. Firstly, it started very similarly because they wanted like squatters to find a house. There was a possibility. This neighborhood, you would have to wait 8 or 10 years. You cannot get them in normal waiting list. You need at least 20 years because of urgent status.
What is urgent status?
Like these people here, they want to demolish their home. Instead of a rental contract, the owner offers them a comparable alternative within the neighborhood. And they do that by giving them urgency status, which means they come above regular people with normal status like me. So, that’s the difference. Also it’s very good for housing associations, and it keeps the housing market blocked for newcomers. There are so many people leaving their old houses. The urgency waiting list is replacing the normal. There can be absolute waiting time. The housing association, what it was saying was that these houses didn’t meet the demand today. The point it so many people would be happy to live in them. That’s what I’m writing. You just can’t get housing anymore, so that’s why I also say infinitely.
I’m on the list.
I’ve skipped out of it so many times.
How do you get on the waiting list, do you just apply?
Yes, and you pay a general fee.
You pay a 35euro.
So if I wanted to get an apartment, I would have to get on the list?
First get on the list and wait for infinite time. Or market system and you pay infinite amount of money. Or you do temporary things and you have fewer rights as anyone else. No protection Amsterdam is a city of these opportunities. Squatting is an infinite respect of the future. I saw that there were 2000 squatters today; really, it must be growing.
This place?
This place was really bad, but it was worse. For investment purposes this house is not functional. There are still people living in it though. There’s too much social housing and there are many different ways why people say that. You have so many people say that 70% people are not social housing qualified, 45% do. People are entitled Housing market is composed of many different segments. They’re giving everyone a chance to move up. It’s a housing career. There people what they want out aren’t the necessarily the people in these situations. It’s a funny thing that people are forced to make a housing career. You are going to also subsidy to pay your rent if it’s too high. That’s also a good source of finance for the housing association. If you have low incomes then you get subsidy. The housing associations like this because they can ask for very high rent and get subsidy for low income. Housing associations do not receive subsidies directly, but indirectly they do.
Doesn’t that discourage people from making more money?
Yeah, but generally people don’t take a job because they will have to pay more rent. There is a complaint that people don’t want to use subsidy.
When did social housing start?
You had housing association. Had some weird Christian socialist, they were weird because they were interested in their workers. In 1901, it was formalized. They are losing income because social.
How did you get started with squatting?
For me it was that through my network of friends. They were squatting already. And it was a situation. I was subletting illegally. And then I decided to start squatting. The friends were students and also non students where we would spend our free time organizing projects.
What kind of projects?
Like organize cultural nights, like bands. Before you know it, projects got complicated. Then came the project of the squatting movement. Originally not all networks were part of squatting, but there’s a big overlap.
How did you start squatting?
I started researching the squatting movement…
(Meeting begins no transcription because it was in Dutch)
Interview 3
Interview 3
August 8, 2007
Overtoom 301
What is the history of Overtoom 301?
We’ve been here since November 1999. We squatted here and another big building by Oosterpark in an old hospital. There was a lot of room there. So then we got evicted and there were a lot of us on the street. It was very temporary. Look for possibilities to find another by parks. This used to be the Dutch film academy. So we found this building was empty, so we built a plan. The local authority took over the ownership. All they wanted to do was demolish it for a bike path. On the other side of the building is vondelpark. They wanted a path straight from the street. We came here and repaired it quite well. We wanted to use it for alterative culture and also to save it from being demolished. The neighbors were very supportive. The situation in Amsterdam used to easier to squat. There were so many empty buildings. It’s still legal, but it was more tolerated 20 years ago. We took a great risk here because it needs to be empty for 1 year and there is no clear plan for the building. It was only empty for a few weeks. We contacted the film school and told them what we were doing and we sort of collected what was lying around and put it in one space. They could come whenever they wanted. The difficultly was the local authority wanted to kick us out. We had the neighbors and we’ve been in the press so our side of the story came out very quickly. So it was politically very difficult to kick us out. WE managed to get ourselves negotiations with the local authority. We said that we would pay a reasonable rent. It took us two years to negotiate a deal. A few times we were offered contracts we refused because of too high rent. Finally we got our rental contract, but they were still planning on knocking it down, but not til 2005 so we can rent the building til 2005. The rent was reasonable, it wasn’t fantastic but we could afford it. And in the meantime get rid of the demolition plan. A week ago the demolition plan was cancelled. We worked through the contract to look at a long-term plan. We said that we’ve built a lot of stuff here, and we want to stay. We though we could buy. We were interested and there were talks for months for a new long-term rent agreement, but they offered 3 or 4 times what we’ve been paying. So we said no we couldn’t accept it at all. We were at grit lock. So then they told us that they were going to sell the place, but not to you guys and we are not going to tell you who we are selling it to. You know. We really felt that the ground opened up because it really came out of the blue. We managed to raise some representation with green left and pppr leftist labor party. If they were to sell it we were to be able to get the first vote. The original plan to sell it to this mystery buyer was overturned. The local authority had to talk to us about buying. They gave us a very tight deadline. They gave us two months to make an offer. We were prepared.we didn’t have any money. We spoke with some banks. There is one bank here in Holland called the treeatis bank who in the past has helped originally squatting building to buy the buildings. They immediately talked to us and it didn’t take long to work that out. October of 2006 we took over the ownership of the building. We had a dodgy period for about a year without a contract. Now, it’s very secure because we are managing covering the payments to the bank. No we have the place for an unforeseeable future.
Who were the original squatters?
ON the day we squatted it, there were about 200 people. That’s normal in Amsterdam if there is a plan to squat a big building you want to go with a lot of people
How do you organize it?
Well, it’s not as big but there still is the squatters’ movement. There are a lot of connections in the city. It was a group of 4 people that planned the squat. And they contacted the squatters group and all the people that had been involved in the other squat were involved. So yeah, we just showed up on a Sunday afternoon and broke in and took it from there.
Were you a part of the original group?
Yeah, I’ve been here since day one
Is this a place for people to go live or is it just a huge space for activities?
It’s always been a mix for a place for people to live and work mostly artists in studios. A big portion has a public function so we have a restaurant here, there's a gallery. There’s some big spaces downstairs for concerts and performances, we have some projects and workshops. Up here just across the corridor we have a cinema 2 nights a week. There’s also a print shop, a band rehearsal room, all these are places that have public use. It’s always been important to try to combine all these elements. Over the years we’ve had to really stick to our guns. We got some support from the city of Amsterdam who wanted to set up a project “breeding space” the idea was to provide affordable working spaces for artists in the city because rent prices have really shot up. Many because all the squats have been evicted. There were a lot of buildings similar to this for many parties and stuff like that. A lot of people came to Amsterdam because it was a squatting place, find a place cheap to live. A lot of this underground people had possibilities and these possibilities have been closing down. So the city realized this and saw what were doing. They wanted to support us. They didn’t want us living here, but they wanted to give us subsidies. We said that we would love subsidies but we aren’t moving. They put some money into the project, and that’s one of the reasons we were able to get a renting contract. There were a lot of problems with fire safety. We were closed for a year we were able to open up back in May of 2004?
Does the city of Amsterdam have community centers?
They have neighborhood community centers. I guess they are city run. There’s lots of general buildings of the city. They take them over and invite artists to apply for space. The rent is very quite affordable. Most people don’t really know about this. It’s a little bit unique
Who was the owner?
The ownership had already been transferred from the school to the local authority called stodsdale, which is part of the city.
So the local authority can own a building because they are part of the government?
Yes
With all the functions advertise?
A lot of it goes by word of mouth. We made flyers and friend and friends came. We began more organized started a website. It’s developed into quite an organization. WE don’t spend a hell of lot on publicity. Often people make their own flyers for concerts or parties.
Has this place got an award?
This was a few weeks back. The Amsterdam prize for the culture. It’s a big deal. We were completely amazed. We’ve been here for quite a long time. The stuff we do it very experimental, and we never expected recognition like this. It’s the biggest prize for culture the city gives out. I think it’s every three years to three people. So the others were an opera singer and an artist. So we will all so along. It’s great to get the recognition and the money it’s 35,00 euros. And it will make everybody interested in this place. Different publicity than in the past
Is this place your full time job?
It’s not anyone’s. But it does take a lot of time. There’s a lot of stuff to be done. Most of it’s …I play bass guitar and computer music. That’s what I’ve always done and I’ve done the website and some administrative stuff you just have learn. We like it so we stick to it. Now we pay ourselves a little bit by hourly basis. No one makes a living from working here. Most the time I’m here. I’m busy with the stuff here.
How did you start squatting?
I come from Scotland where you can’t squat. It’s completely illegal. I came with my band. We came in Holland and played and we were interested in squatting and did a lot of nice concerts and squatting. There was another band that we really made a connection with. So they helped us when we came over here and there were more connections. The first one we lived in is not far from here but long gone. I’ve live in 4 or 5 different squats. IN Amsterdam it’s really hard to find an affordable place unless you have a nice income. I stayed outside of Amsterdam for about 10 years, but I really wanted to get back in the city. Renting a place was really not an option you know. In a way we are quite strong because by now we really know each other for about 10 years. Many of the original squatters are still here. Americans don’t understand. How does that work? It’s just the way things are here and there’s quite a history to it. And it goes back 30 or more years. There used to be a lot of really big buildings, a lot of them have been bought by speculators. 30 years ago you had all these empty buildings and lots of people moving into them. People in the city thought fair enough. 20 30 years ago there were 1000s of buildings no there’s not that much.
Kalenderpanden there were a lot of punk concerts. Eventually the city decided to kick them out. There was a big battle for that place. There was a riot and tear gas
In a way we are really lucky. There hasn’t been any other big buildings since we were here. We are a bit aware about the reality of the situation at that time. We can keep it for a short time, then move on to the next building. We’ve had to make some compromises along the way, it cost a bit more but it works. We came here with nothing
Is it dangerous?
Not really. In a lot of other places. Where I come from it’s completely illegal they will come a kick you up and maybe beat you up. Here the cops come and check it out to make sure it’s been in long enough. When you squat one of the first things you do it call the police to check it out. Only if the owner comes and hires a couple of friends some heavy guys to come kick you out, but you can call the cops. There’s an attempt with the government to make squatting completely illegal. Realistically, in a year or two that law will be passed. The squatter movement isn’t as strong as it used to be.
What changed?
The climate changed. There are least empty buildings. It’s still possible as long as you do your research.
Did you squat for a need of housing or more?
It’s a combination. A lot for most people, it’s economist, but it’s a lot of politics. Thinking about it in a political way as well.
Interview 4
August 16, 2007
Hva interactive media
Rhijnspoorplein 1
What is ADILKNO?
It’s a group of writers. It was established in 1983 and hasn’t published since 2000. There are usually 2 or 3 author of the books with others’ inputs. There were two authors in Cracking the Movement in 1990. 1990 was convenient because it was an end of a chapter, phase, of the movement. There was another generation after the 1995-1997. There was a real estate boom. There were plenty of empty buildings. The social aspect was still there. The economic shift also affected it. The population dropped from 800,000 to 700,000.
What is your background in general?
Well, I was born here in Amsterdam. I was one of the few because many people come from outside. I went to high school, and then the university. I studied political science. When I graduated, I was still very much involved in the squatter’s movement. I lived from the dull. It’s an English expression. I lived on welfare for a good 9 years. So, until 1993, I was unemployed and then after that I kind of established myself. I was able to make a living from the work that I did and wanted to do. I was a radio producer and I was already by then an international media theorist. Since I graduated 84 or 85, I tried to envision what it would be to be a freethinking individual. I know that is completely impossible in the United States. At least I tried for a long time to find out how you can do writing outside of the established institutions and of course outside of the university. So, I've been able to stay outside of the university for 20 years. Until 2003, to that’s 20 years as a theorist and a critique I’ve managed to not be on the payroll or be institutionalized.
How did you get started with squatting?
Squatting? Well, it started very simple. I was a 1st year student. It was very hard to find housing, and there were a lot of opportunities. An enormous amount of empty building you could just go and squat. You could just go on a bike ride and pick a building with friends.
Singel 186 was one of the best buildings; it’s now legalized social housing. I already then lived in a squat, but it was quite big. Living with 50-80 people in one huge building. We were looking for a smaller house for just us. It was a canal house built in 1730 in baroque style. It was obvious that the owner didn’t know what to do with it. He just wanted to renovate it and sell it off. But he didn’t have the papers for it. You need to permission to do a lot of things here. He was just a ridiculous amateur; it was also how he behaved. On early Saturday morning we just arranged from friends and moved into the building. It was the start of a very wild and tumultuous history of squatting. But we were just a tiny house of 6-8 people. It was completely demolished from the inside. We had to build chimneys get gas and electricity. You acquire all these skills as well. Around us there were many similar groups like us. I would say in the early 1980s, 1980, 1981, there were at least 10-15,000 people living like me in the city living in these circumstances. But the main stock of housing was that in the 19th century areas outside of the old city wall. There was a wall with military defense systems to defend the old city. The walls were only torn down around 1850 with the start of the industrial revolution and the expansion of the city. Around then, these areas were built to facilitate the workers that came with the industrial revolution. Around the 1970s, these houses were all 100 years old and falling apart. They needed to be rebuilt. A lot of the old stock, the workers had already moved out of Amsterdam because there were no showers, the most basic things were failing, very badly insolated. And they were small very small. So they had already moved out of town. There were enormous amounts of empty houses, which attracted lots of young people. It was very international. One of the first groups of squatters was a group of American tourists in the late 1960s. It was more into the old town near the redlight district and central station. That’s because the hippie movement was an international network. That network meant that lots of youngsters from the US just came over. It was also the start of cheap flights and the opening of the airport. In a way, they were the first squatters because they needed housing to live there. A great deal of them were here for long periods of time.
That is the legal base of squatting. (talking about 8-9 year wait for social housing). The shortage of housing has been here since World War 1, since the 20s. Why it hasn’t changed? Nobody can wait, what are you supposed to do. They have created a whole system of illegal deals. That system is severely corrupt and inefficient. That system has been then there since the 20s and 30s. There were rent riots in the 30s because of the same reason. In the years after WWII was very severe. There was some squatting happening then. In that time especially because of the destruction the European jewlry. This town was very hard hit. That also had an impact on the housing situation in particular the whole decay of the Jewish neighborhood, the Niewmarkt, which is a special story. It’s a late medieval part of town. On top of that in the 50s and 60s they had a weird idea of knocking it all down and build highways through it. This street is a direct result of the holocaust. It seems normal in a US perspective. If you think in terms of Venetian, these roads are three times too big. They knocked down basically everything in order to somehow jump this space. That is of course megalo mania in the 1960s that only through radial movements in the 1970s stopped. More precisely 1975, when the movement won and lost. It’s the first really big squatter movement in our book. The metro line was built at great cost. To build a metro through that, it’s crazy. They are building a new line now, but they learned their lesson. They aren’t tearing down any buildings.
Has a neighborhood protest been more recent?
What’s happening there is interesting. It’s a bit of a left over in the long process of tearing down and replacing it with new buildings. But these days, it’s different because the people there are fighting against gentrification and high prices. There’s a deconstruction of social housing there. There will be enormous amounts of apartments sold at market prices. At least around 300,000 euros for a really small too modest two bed room place. That kind of fighting still is relatively new because of the real estate boom. There is hardly nay real estate here because so much is social housing. So the arrival of real estate and the new idea is very new and started in the mid 1990s only 10 years ago. It became visible with exploding prices around 2000. It’s fairly recent.
Is there a different dynamic when there are just squatters in a building and a combo of tenants, squatters, and anti squatters?
To use ant squatters, has been a very effective way to undermine the movement. Just from the social pool that they appeal to. It’s the same. Young people who don’t have money usually students. The squatter’s movement and the antisquatters. The firms that facilitate that they recruit from the same pool. If we were able to prevent antisquatting to come up, history would have taking a different turn in this town. Squatter movement would have been even more influential. But over time in the late 80s and 90s, the social drive has been undermined by the antisquatting. Because there were no longer buildings available, because the economy picked up in the 1990s. Socially speaking, antisquatting became more efficient. In general, the decline of social engagement and involvement in social movements from 1990s onward. Funny enough, if you add all these things up, by the late 1990s, you see an enormous revival or return of the tourist quarter; the squatting has taken off enormously. Maybe it has to do with other aspects. When it was at it’s height, it was purely white middle class lower middle class phenomena. Not for rich kids to do. No migrants. For others, it was absolutely necessity. It was also a positive lifestyle choice to get involved, and a political choice. But that then changes. From the second half of the 1980s, a return of the international squatters particularly the Italians who come just to squat.
How does the media portray the squatting movement portray the squatting movement recently?
A lot of things have been ritualized. Police evictions are on Tuesdays of every month. Squatters have not been able to create symbols, like a building stands for all the other buildings. They have prevented a critical mass to grow. If it’s only a collection of buildings, the amount of people that are involvement, and the organization that comes from that is managed. Squatting becomes a little more comparable to other European cities. In the past, it was quite unique because of its shear size. In Berlin, there was enormous social potential to be a real big movement. At the height they only had 170 buildings. These houses were really big. On average, the size of the buildings here would hold 5-10. A big one would have 40 people. A big squatting town was Geneva, still in Paris as well.
What does the squatting symbol stand for?
It’s a Native American symbol that you would find on trees. Navajo symbol language is where it comes from what a friend of mine did when he invented the symbol. The lightning arrow stands for “we continue”. And of course the only thing he did was adding the circle. And that became the squatting symbol. That was in 1977 or 1978. It as then used when the movement was rising and busted out in 1980. It very quickly traveled throughout.
